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Gantry 5 user unfriendly

  • Re: Gantry 5 user unfriendly

    Posted 4 years 1 day ago
    • What you are saying may be true if your G5 templates did not use particles, etc.

      Problem is that we recently asked a client to choose a Rocket template as a beginning point. They found a G5 template with pretty home page features, and then I soon realized we were probably going to lose money on this project, and that the client will be very unhappy once they find out there is no front-end editing.

      It sounds like RT will never understand what we are trying to say and keep telling us we are wrong.
    • Last Edit: 4 years 1 day ago by Deb Williams.
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    Re: Gantry 5 user unfriendly

    Posted 4 years 1 day ago
    • Deb Williams wrote:

      It sounds like RT will never understand what we are trying to say and keep telling us we are wrong.

      Sad.

      That's a bit harsh. They are listening, but they are focused on developers, not 'users'. Therefore, when trying to speak for users, we get the answer "RTFM" (basically).

      I think it's more important to give them constructive feedback than to complain that G5 is 'bad'.
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    Re: Gantry 5 user unfriendly

    Posted 4 years 1 day ago
    • Front-end particle Editing is coming its on the TODO list its not been assigned to release just yet but it will get there, feel free to subscribe to this issue and be notified when its implemented.
      github.com/gantry/gantry5/issues/1005

      I simply love particles they are awesome, you can do all sort of miracle thing with them and they work in WordPress and in Joomla also they will work in Grav all the same code no need to learn different api etc ... G5 like Henning said is a Ferrari or maybe a Rocket. G5 is a new born, still a lot of work needs to be done but its getting better and better every day so please have some understanding for the devs because they are doing a dam good job and some features needs to be done sooner then others like inheritance that we are all waiting that will be released soon.
      That's a bit harsh. They are listening, but they are focused on developers, not 'users'. Therefore, when trying to speak for users, we get the answer "RTFM" (basically).

      I think it's more important to give them constructive feedback than to complain that G5 is 'bad'.

      Brian that's not true we are focused on everyone if we would been focused on developers then we would not need particles we would use php, html and scss. For the developer its simple to add a piece of code in the custom html module and show something on the site, and what happens when someone from regular users come and turn the tiny editor and hit save all gets messed up some code is eaten nothing works ... so that's why the particles are great thing, that we need front-end editing YES but we just need to wait a little longer for it!
    • Last Edit: 4 years 1 day ago by Damir.
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    Re: Gantry 5 user unfriendly

    Posted 4 years 1 day ago
    • David Goode wrote:
      Hi Alex,

      By all means keep coming back and saying the same thing time and time again. But to support your argument please define "Standard User", which may be a great trick as I am fairly sure you do not have access to our member list. Even if you did you wouldn't have had the time to conduct a straw poll to see what percentage are developers versus your "standard users".
      David, that's a tad bit rude. You are basically saying "we will keep ignoring you, since you know nothing".

      You seem to be placing "Standard User" into just "RT user".
      I certainly hope you don't just look at type of memberships of RT users and assume that all that have 'Developer' plans are indeed developers. I don't know how anyone would know what each member actually is unless there was a poll done.

      As someone with a Developers plan, and someone that does see the power of G5, I have to say that I am thinking about the 'End Users', the one's we hand the website over to. Those are the 'normal people', the one's that don't care about CSS. I am the translator for them, trying to explain what the true talented geeks do. And this is where the disconnect is coming from.

      I don't use Rocket Launcher, and I try to use a minimum of extensions. Why? Because I've taken over websites where 'developers' do all this fancy stuff, some customized, and most of it served no purpose but to make the developer look great. Oh, and if anything goes wrong, it's likely that same developer has a chance to make money fixing their custom creation. End users don't know about updates (yes, they should), and they don't know about keeping memberships.

      Perhaps I care too much for my clients, where I try to give them something they can update themselves if they have to without an education in a framework different than the main CMS.

      It's been over a year that G5 is out, and while it has improved greatly, it still has a way to go.
      Please think about how often you are hearing "WTF?!", even from people that want all the features.
      It's overwhelming for most, and when I see something overwhelming for experienced designers, then I know the resistance I will get from site owners when they go to just 'peek' at the template settings and are greeted with way too many options.

      How about this.... think of how those Virus Scanners and anti-Malware software work. They default to the 'dummy version', with an option to see the advanced features. This would be fantastic to have, keeping the options available, but basically hiding them.

      Does no one else unpublish some core components in Joomla? Like Banners, and maybe Contacts? I disable any component that is not needed so that when the Site Owner goes to the backend, they are not overwhelmed with menus filled with unknown concepts. If they are never going to use the Banner component, why should it be in the menu?

      Visually appealing and intuitive does NOT mean dropping functionality.

      Again, I agree G5 is powerful. But don't dismiss the call for it being more intuitive and understandable. It's obvious from the ongoing 'complaints' that there is something wrong. Saying RTFM, or 'open your mind', is a bit insulting to some of us that have read the manual and are open to change. And digging your heels in because you're 'right' is not going to help either side.
    • Last Edit: 4 years 1 day ago by Brian Shea.
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  • Re: Gantry 5 user unfriendly

    Posted 4 years 1 day ago
    • I will add my voice to this chorus. I love RocketTheme.

      However, after trying and failing many times to use Gantry 5, I am giving up yet again.

      IMHO

      It's massively too complex a paradigm shift

      It really belongs as a competitive product to Joomla, not an add-on to Joomla

      I very much wish that RT would fork this as another, separate product and return to extending and improving Gantry 4

      I've already lost entire pages of work that I can find no way to retrieve. I made some change (can't recall what) and suddenly all the page components just vanish and can't be found.

      But, since it doesn't appear any of that will be happening soon, and because I want to support RT and be a 'team player', can anyone point me to a simple video tutorial for how to use Gantry 5?
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    Re: Gantry 5 user unfriendly

    Posted 4 years 1 day ago
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    Re: Gantry 5 user unfriendly

    Posted 4 years 1 day ago
    • Been there, done that and despite all reading we get stuck.
      That's the point we are trying to make, but RT does not want to hear it.
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    Re: Gantry 5 user unfriendly

    Posted 4 years 1 day ago
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    Re: Gantry 5 user unfriendly

    Posted 4 years 1 day ago
    • Hi Brian,

      Brian Shea wrote:
      David Goode wrote:
      Hi Alex,

      By all means keep coming back and saying the same thing time and time again. But to support your argument please define "Standard User", which may be a great trick as I am fairly sure you do not have access to our member list. Even if you did you wouldn't have had the time to conduct a straw poll to see what percentage are developers versus your "standard users".
      David, that's a tad bit rude. You are basically saying "we will keep ignoring you, since you know nothing".

      Not rude, just blunt. If you keep coming back and saying the same thing over and over again in the same thread then perhaps the replies were not understood so they have to be simpler and more obvious.

      Brian Shea wrote:
      You seem to be placing "Standard User" into just "RT user".
      I certainly hope you don't just look at type of memberships of RT users and assume that all that have 'Developer' plans are indeed developers. I don't know how anyone would know what each member actually is unless there was a poll done.

      With the greatest respect Brian people only buy developer plans if they plan on looking after or creating more than one site. If that is the case then they should make the effort to understand the client's needs and advise accordingly. I have no issues with explaining G5 to clients. Where clients don't need particles I don't use them. And as was mentioned in this thread, I also let my clients choose a template as a starting point and when they do I highlight the particle elements and explain what needs to done if they wish to edit them. In some cases I just use an extension. I have not yet had a client where G5 was too complicated.

      Brian Shea wrote:
      As someone with a Developers plan, and someone that does see the power of G5, I have to say that I am thinking about the 'End Users', the one's we hand the website over to. Those are the 'normal people', the one's that don't care about CSS. I am the translator for them, trying to explain what the true talented geeks do. And this is where the disconnect is coming from.

      Until front end editing becomes available it may be more complex to explain to end users but it isn't impossible. If I have a challenged client then I record the screen as I do the harder bits. This allows me to make a very short video and/or a pdf guide.

      Brian Shea wrote:
      I don't use Rocket Launcher, and I try to use a minimum of extensions. Why? Because I've taken over websites where 'developers' do all this fancy stuff, some customized, and most of it served no purpose but to make the developer look great. Oh, and if anything goes wrong, it's likely that same developer has a chance to make money fixing their custom creation. End users don't know about updates (yes, they should), and they don't know about keeping memberships.

      Anyone developing for a third party has a duty of care to explain all those aspects. If the client then choose to ignore them it gets expensive very quick, especially if they get hacked.

      Brian Shea wrote:
      Perhaps I care too much for my clients, where I try to give them something they can update themselves if they have to without an education in a framework different than the main CMS.

      I care for my clients which is why I show them how to use the backend admin. That way they are reminded about updates too. This is basic stuff and clients should be aware of it even if they choose not to use it.

      Brian Shea wrote:
      It's been over a year that G5 is out, and while it has improved greatly, it still has a way to go.
      Please think about how often you are hearing "WTF?!", even from people that want all the features.
      It's overwhelming for most, and when I see something overwhelming for experienced designers, then I know the resistance I will get from site owners when they go to just 'peek' at the template settings and are greeted with way too many options.

      G5 has a long way to go and it is continually being developed. Some of those changes will be based on member feedback and some will be RocketTheme generated. Like most progressive things there will always be a WTF moment from users. Some just get on with it while others rebel against it. That is human nature and it is well documented in change management principles. Just look at the options on smartphones these days, huge amount. Doesn't stop people buying them and if you ask some owners what they use they tell you "making and receiving calls; sending text messages; and perhaps email and calendar reminders". A lot depends on the age of the user too. But even those who are technically challenged in the use of smartphones use their manual and work out the bit they do want.

      Brian Shea wrote:
      How about this.... think of how those Virus Scanners and anti-Malware software work. They default to the 'dummy version', with an option to see the advanced features. This would be fantastic to have, keeping the options available, but basically hiding them.

      Does no one else unpublish some core components in Joomla? Like Banners, and maybe Contacts? I disable any component that is not needed so that when the Site Owner goes to the backend, they are not overwhelmed with menus filled with unknown concepts. If they are never going to use the Banner component, why should it be in the menu?

      The simple/advanced option is one of the useful pieces of feedback in this thread and will get discussed further at RocketTheme. I always unpublish anything that is not being used on the site. I also delete any core content or demo content. For some clients I even set them up as Administrator rather than Super User to prevent them accessing certain areas. In a few cases with larger clients I have created extra Groups and new Access Control Levels. That is what developing websites is about when you take money from clients. The site has to match their needs and if that involves extra documents and training then it gets included in the quote.

      Brian Shea wrote:
      Visually appealing and intuitive does NOT mean dropping functionality.

      Again, I agree G5 is powerful. But don't dismiss the call for it being more intuitive and understandable. It's obvious from the ongoing 'complaints' that there is something wrong. Saying RTFM, or 'open your mind', is a bit insulting to some of us that have read the manual and are open to change. And digging your heels in because you're 'right' is not going to help either side.

      As was said by another member, it is not always possible to create the 'intuitive' interfaces we would like because the code would be too heavy and all benefits of site speed would then be lost. Can some elements be better? Of course and I have said this several times. We have 'inheritance' coming shortly and that is a major benefit for anyone using multiple outlines. We also have front-end editing on the list. But the reality is that the back-end will always be fairly complex because the template and framework do so much more than Joomla on its own.

      If you want set functions from extensions instead of particles then you can still keep it simple for your clients. If you want to use particles then you will have educate your clients in their use.

      It is all about choices.
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  • Re: Gantry 5 user unfriendly

    Posted 4 years 1 day ago
    • Hi

      I have been working with Joomla sites since 15 years. I have been on and off with Rocket Theme for many years - on because I like the templates.

      My main work is not building sites - that is one of the things I do part from graphic design, 3D work, marketing etc. I like Joomla and templates because I can quickly get something up and running and there are lots of nice functions to add to a site.

      I just want you all at RocketTheme to know that I very much appreciate all your efforts and also your clear intentions to move Joomla forward and to develop Gantry! I really mean it. Thanks to you, I have had a stable income for over 6 years from a few of the projects I created with templates from you! Thank you!

      I also want to thank you for working on Gantry 5! I have just set up a new site using Requiem and have had to encounter Gantry 5 for the first time. It is just as tricky to wrap my head around as Joomla was when I started. But is is sleek, flexible and dynamic. I like it! I have no problem with meeting you half way. It would be impossibe for you to make an interface that would suit a beginner because you come from the code side of things. That is what you are supposed to do.

      I am sure you will be able to pick up some ideas from the ones here who do not dive so deep into the code and who have become used to Apple Apps on iOS, that are "intuitive". I would like that but I understand it is a process. Gantry 5 is a wonderful progression and I can see that Gantry 6 will be an even greater step towards the user simplicity we all would love - for ourselves and for our clients.

      Please know you are loved and appreciated!

      Best Regards
      johan:niklasson
    • Last Edit: 3 years 11 months ago by Johan Niklasson.
    • The following users have thanked you: David Goode, MrT, Damir

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